Below is Ben Johnson's ( drblinky at gmail dot com ) response to my essay Evolution and the Wisdom of crowds, and my response to it. I left Ben's words in their entirety, while mine have white background and a gray vertical line to the left. (and he quoted me from the original article in blue) Ben gave me permission to reproduce it here.
Since Ben's response was very long, and because it was in a particularly hostile tone which I think was undeserved (given that my essay was not intended to insult anyone, and the most common complaint about it was that I was actually being too nice to the creationist crowd), and because he was using the same sort of logical errors over and over (mostly, extreme black and white thinking rather than having any appreciation whatsoever for shades of gray), I only responded to what I felt like, figuring I had spent far more time that it deserved already.
And by the way, I generally tend to be nice and respectful to people -- even those that I completely disagree with -- as long as they treat me that way as well. Ben didn't, so I didn't.
-rob
Happening upon a reference to your paper at Slashdot.org which related the concept of 'Wisdom of Crowds' to the rejection of evolution by the 'religious masses', my interest was quickly engaged as it is with unfortunate infrequency these days that 'something new' comes down the pike. Reading in the abstract that you had cited Wikipedia as an example of successful evolution, I at first bit my lip. 'Oh no, not another fundamentalist-atheist with their eyes wide shut...' but, I decided, the summarizing journalist is likely neither trained in nor well-equipped to effectively relate the finer points of this subject. Certainly there seemed the potential for you to be a man possessing not just intelligence, but wisdom as well. So I clicked the link.
Gee, thanks Ben. (btw, there is no such thing as a "fundamentalist atheist," any more than there is a "fundamentalist non-flat-Earther")
And so I easily ignored the obvious false dilemma with which you chose to start your paper. 'Every body needs a good hook to get people reading' I thought... Unfortunately my willing suspension of disbelief could only last but a few sentences more before I came to the sinking realization that you were making some very fundamental mistakes in your reasoning processes.
I have to admit that I was initially caught a bit off guard by your piece. Reading through the first paragraph, correlating the 'since this's' and the 'then that's' in my mind, I was surprised to come to the end and find, unfortunately, that most of the 'since this' parts of the argument had no 'then that' conclusions. And with corresponding frequency, the 'then that' conclusions had no 'since this's' to point to them. I re-read it again. No better. And again Ð it was starting to get worse. 'Maybe I just need to read the whole thing', I thought. Maybe he'll tie it together later on, or at the end, in a glorious climax of reason and rationale. Or not.
Conventional wisdom says that the primary reason why so many people do not accept Darwin's theory of evolution is that they find it threatening to their religious beliefs. There is no question that religion is a big part of the reason behind the large number of people who reject evolution.
This is certainly true. Being what may be described as the type with religious belief myself, I can verify that it is, unfortunately, generally true.
But I am convinced that just as often, the cause and effect is reversed: people hold onto their fundamentalist religious beliefs because evolution by natural selection... is so counter-intuitive to so many.
Now I am going to presume, for the sake of conversation (and due to specific language of yours later in your piece), that you are here referring to the religious beliefs of Christianity.
Not necessarily, but that seems to be the biggest culprit in the United States. I referred to an 'Old Testament type creator', so I guess I was restricting it to those who believe in the Abrahamic God, and specifically, a fairly literal interpretation of Genesis.
Now you have asserted that, effectively, because evolution is counter-intuitive, people with religious belief reject it.
Ummmm, no. (are you sure you read the article?)
My hypothesis is that counter-intuitiveness and religion are more-or-less equal contributers to its rejection. I in no way said that religious people are more likely to struggle with the counter-intuitive. I also want to clarify that evolution is not counter-intuitive to all people: some people, including myself, and including most people who argued against my hypotheses, find evolution quite intuitive.
I think the counter-intuitiveness is latched onto by many religious people, much as a politician's personal indiscretions tend to be latched onto by people who disagree with his political ideology. But I don't claim that one political ideology or the other is more likely to be forgiving of personal indiscretions.
I find this conclusion highly ironic, since Christians claim to hold all sorts of positions which they, by their own admission, initially found counter-intuitive. Would you conclude that of all the major religions in the world, the only one that does not require a person to 'do' anything to attain heaven, is not counter-intuitive?
I remember as a small child -- probably much too young to have understood evolution -- not having a huge problem with believing that sort of religion. Being easily graspable would qualify it as intuitive in my book...it seems a lot easier for a child or untrained adult to imagine a human-like entity designing things (being not so far from things that can be directly observable in everyday contexts), than imagining them arising through statistical selection of random mutations over billions of years.
Also, I'm not sure I agree that most Christians think that you don't have to 'do' anything to attain heaven. If nothing else, don't you have to buy into the whole Jesus-is-son-of-God thing? (gotta give Christianity credit for pulling that little scam off....promise a huge reward to people if they join up, but make it such that no one can actually find out whether other people actually received theirs)
I would further argue that the counter-intuitive thing you note, is generally not the first thing explained about Abrahamic religions such as Christianity. Normally you start off with something basic, like a Santa-looking man in the sky making someone out of mud and turning on the lights and all that. Easy enough to grasp for a simple mind, I'd think. Its only when your mind gets more sophisticated and you think about it ('which way is heaven again? So is God below me if I go to Australia?'), that its true counter-intuitive nature arises (or should I say 'ridiculous nature'?). Evolution, from the very beginning, can be mind blowing....there isn't a simple way to get people started with a cute little fairy-tale level explanation. Doesn't make it not true, but all the same it is very hard for many people to grasp. Case in point, you.
Regardless, just because Christians accept one counter-intuitive belief does not somehow mean that they accept all counter-intuitive belief. I doubt there is a gene for 'believing in counter-intuitive things'. More likely, there might be a gene for 'gray scale, statistical thinking' versus 'black and white, boolean thinking'. People who have the latter will probably find things like market economics and evolution hard to grasp. But such a gene would have no effect on their willingness to accept the counter-intuitive-in-completely-different-ways things you describe about Christianity.
(for the record, I use the word 'gene' here in a colloquial, semi-facetious way....for all I know, it is as likely a cultural factor that results in some people having a harder time with gray scale thinking)
C.S.Lewis indeed noted that 'Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it.' There is no logical conclusion that: If an idea is counter intuitive, then 'religious' people will reject it. Oh, and this gem:
[Evolution by natural selection is] the strongest argument against an Old Testament-type creator.
I first of all would be very interested to receive your opinion on what exactly differentiates an 'Old Testament-type creator' from a 'New Testament-type creator'.
The old testament is where the creation is explicitly described, that is all. I did not use 'Old Testament creator' in contrast to 'New Testament creator,' that was your misinterpretation. If it helps you understand it, substitute 'Biblical type creator' or 'Genesis type creator' or 'invisible man in the sky who supposedly made the earth in 6 days'.
I'm unfortunately left to conclude that you threw in the modifier 'Old Testament-type' so that you would sound like you had some knowledge of Christianity to those who have even less. Secondly, presuming you are referring to what may theistically or deistically be thought of as God, there is no logical conclusion that: If evolution: then God doesn't exist.
True, many people believe in both God and evolution -- obviously I don't dispute that. (I refer to those folks as 'moderates') The assertion that belief in God causes some people to reject evolution in no way conflicts with the idea that some people can both believe in God and accept evolution. (once again, black and white thinking on your part)
You fail to understand that the method by which certain chemical systems formed on a certain planet has no relevance to whether or not there exists some kind of super-natural power.
It doesn't prove anything about the existance of a God, but it certainly is relevant.
Many people, when they learn of evolution, eventually discard belief in God in the same way they discard belief in Santa Claus when they discover that their parents bring them presents on Christmas. Sure, it is still possible for there to be a Santa who never leaves the north pole, but loves all the children while keeping tabs on who behaves and who doesn't -- but isn't actually responsible for bringing presents. But it just seems a bit redundant when you've got a good answer for how the presents got there.
So seeing evidence that your parents bring you presents is certainly relevent to whether there is a Santa Claus. Just not proof of the non-existance of Santa. Likewise with evolution and God.
(note: 'relevance,' like many things you demonstrate difficulty with, is a gray scale concept. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that you interpret me as saying 'If evolution: then God doesn't exist' rather than 'If evolution: then less support for the God hypothesis and therefore less reason to consider it likely that there is a God, unless other evidence strongly supports it'. I imagine a black and white thinker such as yourself can't even parse that last sentence without your head threatening to explode)
By the way, which side are you arguing? Now you are seeming to argue that evolution could be true, but that it doesn't say anything about the existance of God. Before you seemed to be arguing against the truth of evolution. Maybe you could pick a position and stick with it?
(incidentally, my essay had very little to do with religion, the only reference to religion was in downplaying its importance in the disbelief in evolution)
One part deals with details within the bounds of chemistry, the other with the mode by which chemistry came to exist. Also by this statement, you apparently have either never heard of or failed to grasp such ideas as Panspermia
Panspermia doesn't in any way conflict with evolution or a supernatural-free universe. It just moves the earliest possible date of the origin of life back by quite a few billion years. I have no strong feeling on whether there is truth to it or not...I think it is a quite reasonable possibility, but so far I don't think there is any evidence one way or the other.
or Biologos.
Francis Collins 'Biologos' hypothesis just strikes me as 'grasping at straws' by someone who excels at biology but had religion implanted in his mind early enough and deeply enough that he was simply unable to let go. Going back to my Santa analogy, it appears to me like someone coming up with a way to rationalize a belief in Santa Claus after seeing clear evidence that someone else is responsible for presents under the tree (yes, I do like the Santa analogy, because I lost my belief in Santa and God roughly simultaneously, for the same reasons).
One thing I find particularly bizarre about Francis Collins and Biologos is that he thinks that a supernatural entity is necessary to explain "knowledge of right and wrong." Knowledge of right and wrong is just a sensitivity to how your actions might benefit or harm your peers, which has obvious Darwinian advantages in a social creature (for instance, those who are unaware that lying, cheating and stealing are not appreciated by others might find themselves ostracized by society, and then won't pass on their genes). Unless you are talking about the arbitrary sort of right and wrong one might get from the Bible, such as "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." I guess you sort of need a God for that, but an imaginary one will do just fine.
Regardless, since Francis Collins does accept evolution, he falls squarely within the category of a 'moderate,' in my opinion, and he certainly is 'science-minded.' So at least from the point of view of my essay, he's more on my side than not.
I arrive at this conclusion in a somewhat roundabout way.
No doubt.
Gotta love the snotty attitude. Practice that much?
I have long been fascinated with systems that tap into the ' wisdom of crowds' -- systems that, in fact, have much in common with Darwinian evolution.
You here make your first praxeological error in mis-assigning the cause and effect. The 'wisdom of crowds' idea is of an effect observed, not some kind of pre-existent, nebulous, force that exerts its own will through masses of people.
Huh? Did I claim it was? I haven't been big on the whole "pre-existent, nebulous, force that exerts its own will" thing since I quit going to church at age nine.
...I see the same sort of resistance to them as I see to evolution. The arguments against them are remarkably similar.
And therein lies the rub; as the arguments against them are indeed superficially similar, but differ in a very fundamental way.
This hypothesis, if borne out, suggests that advocates of reason... might consider a different tact if they wish to convince more people to reconsider their fundamentalist, anti-scientific beliefs.
True. Although you unfortunately don't give us any hints on how to convince those who don't accept evolution on reasons that are neither 'fundamentalist' nor anti-scientific.
I don't give hints on how to juggle either. So?
Oh wait, yes I do. (well, the first part, not the juggling).
In fact that was the whole point of the article. Didja read it? It was about people who don't accept evolution due to it being in a class of concepts -- e.g. equilibrium seeking processes that can only be observed through statistics -- that are difficult for many to form a mental model of. And in turn, anti-scientific fundamentalist views being partially caused by the resulting rejection of evolution, not causing rejection of evolution. I mean, go back and read the title of the essay, 'Does fundamentalist religion cause the rejection of evolution? or is it the other way around?' Did you really miss that?
And how could we miss this precious thing:
moderates, atheists, and the science minded
Listed as the like as the sole-proprietors of reason? This is one step away form defining a person as reasonable by whether or not they conform to your personal stereotypes.
Well I did include 'moderates' in the list. So, let's see, who is not included in my list of the 'proprietors of reason'? Religious extremists and those who reject science? Ok, yeah, I'm comfortable with leaving that group out. Sorry if you find it politically incorrect, but I stand by it, 100%.
1. Wikipedia:
I have spent a lot of time debating with intelligent people...
I have to ask, were all of these people either moderates, atheists, or the 'science-minded'?
With regard to wikipedia, yes, to my knowledge they were all moderates or atheists, and they all accepted some degree of science....whether truly science minded or not I don't know. None of them were religious extremists if that's what you mean -- honestly I usually don't spend a great deal of time arguing directly with religious extremists or those that outright reject science (this apparently being a rare exception).
[they] simply reject that Wikipedia can be accurate or reliable
Arguing that Wikipedia 'can't be' reliable does certainly seem doomed to failure since I seriously doubt their ability to see the future with regard to any major changes made to the site by its owners. However, a study you later mentioned does tend to support an argument that Wikipedia may not be as reliable, if only in some correlation to its greater volume (irregardless of whether one considers it accurate and reliable enough for a certain specific use).
Sure. As I mention, Wikipedia is quite new, and getting better (witness the large number of citations that have appeared in it in the time since that study). Secondly, as someone who designs reputation systems, I am first to admit that Wikipedia's design could be improved by the use of a karma system or the like (but this is deviating from topic).
I made clear that Wikipedia is not perfect. (and also compared the downsides to some of the downsides of evolution, such as its cruelty)
Comparing it to evolution, an edit of Wikipedia might be considered equivalent to a genetic mutation.
This is where the bottom completely falls out of your argument in two ways. Firstly, Wikipedia was designed so that people would edit it. Wikipedia will not work without edits. A genetic replication, on the other hand, is setup so as to work without mutations. A mutation is a mistake, a process failure, in the natural chain of events.
Wow. Ok. Now were are getting at what is going on with your way of thinking.
Process failure? Says who? How do you define failure without some intelligent designer? Failure in what sense? Are you also going to say when a rock breaks off a mountainside that it is some sort of 'failure in the natural chain of events'? Or maybe, just maybe, it is simply part of the natural chain of events, and natural events can't be labeled as "success" or "failure" without being relative to a designer or at least a beneficiary.
If you want to treat the species or gene as a beneficiary, fine, but ability to mutate most certainly does have long term benefits for the species or gene. Evolution will not work without mutations. A species that had 100% non-'failure' when replicating would be extinct in relatively short order, as it would not be able to adapt.
I've spent a fair amount of time writing genetic algorithms, which are quite useful for solving certain classes of problems. If you take out the random modification, the process does not work, plain and simple. Lack of such modifications will tend to give you a higher percentage of survival in the short term (since most modifications will be bad), but in the long term it utterly fails since the only adaptation you will have is from mixing existing features.
So why, since I am the 'intelligent designer' of such a system, do I not consider it a 'failure' when something mutates, but actually consider it part of the design? Seems rather presumptuous of you to classify something as a 'failure' just because it is not how you would prefer or expect it to operate. Have you ever built anything remotely similar to a genetic algorithm? Do you even know how they work? Because my guess is that if you designed one, it wouldn't work at all.
A mistake or accident in Wikipedia would be something like a bogus page redirect, a loss or scrambling of data on a server, etc. In order for Wikipedia to improve in the evolutionary sense which you appear to be referencing, a data error on a server hard drive would have to improve the accuracy and/or reliability of a notation.
Your ability to miss the point is truly stunning. Yes, if you want an exact analogue of evolution, Wikipedia should have pure random changes such as those you describe. But then you'd probably complain that Wikipedia should be made of cells containing DNA for the analogy to have any meaning.
If it did require truly random changes, sure, Wikipedia might still work just fine (assuming the selection process was still in place). As long as you don't mind waiting a few hundred thousand years for it to be useful.
My point is that Wikipedia works more like evolution than most other man-made things (such as, say, Britannica), because the input has lower average quality, but there are a lot more selection events to make up for it. I never said it is precisely identical to evolution in every way. Wikipedia is a stepping stone concept....somewhere between 'carefully designed in a top down fashion by an intelligent individual' and 'evolved from the bottom up.'
But see, stepping stones are part way between one thing and another. Sort of like gray is part way between black and white. Tough for you, I know.
The second way your assertion is specious, is that even if we ignored your gross equivocation of the term evolution, the improvement in Wikipedia would only be analogous to micro-evolution, that is, change within a species. Evolution only is ever contested (at least by non-fundamentalists) on the grounds that it claims to provide a method for macro-evolution.
All I can say is, read this, where I directly address the confusion resulting from people assigning more meaningfulness to the word 'species' than is there . Species boundaries are blurry (especially between earlier and later species in the same line), and exactly where those boundaries are placed is arbitrarily decided by humans. Naming species can be convenient, like giving names to neighborhoods, but if you try to assign too much meaning to the names, you are going to be confused.
Again, this is black and white thinking on your part. Evolution is all about shades of gray. Anyone who has any understanding of evolution whatsoever sees the utter ridiculousness of trying divide it into macro and micro evolution. It is as silly as claiming that new dialects can form within a language, but it is impossible for a whole new language to develop. (I can imagine you struggling with the idea of the first French speaking person, and how lonely he must have been, since he had no one to talk to)
To make your analogy work, people making edits and additions to Wikipedia would have to change it into a different (and superior, some would add) website. Such as an auction site, on line retailer, or whatever one would consider different and a superior fit for the internet environment. You then go on to draw several sweeping conclusions which are based on this faulty presupposition.
Why can't that apply to articles, or sections of articles -- why does it have to apply to the whole site? Anyway, I think the whole site has changed to a superior site, from when it first existed and was hardly useful. Of course, you are only going to think of it being different if it suddenly makes a large jump, or gets a new name or a new purpose. Because you think in black and white.
Here, let me give you an analogy to evolution that would 'work' for you: evolution itself. How is that? Because apparently the only analogy that would 'work' is one that is identical in every way. Because you think in black and white.
Every time we see a person or animal that suffers from a severe birth defect we see the cruelty of the process, but we also recognize that such a mutation will probably not survive more than a generation or two due to the power of selection.
If you believe what you say - 'such a mutation will probably not survive more than a generation or two', then you have an even poorer knowledge than mine of how traits are promulgated throughout a species. Depending on, among other things, whether or not the genes responsible for certain traits are dominant or recessive they may not show up in the next generation at all.
All depends on your interpretation of the word 'severe' (a gray scale word which has 'degrees', hence your apparent difficulty with it). If interpreted as one that will result in, for instance, an individual that has less than 25% chance of reaching adulthood, then yes, it won't tend to last even one generation. That individual will most likely not reproduce, and the mutation will be gone.
If it is less severe, but still deleterious, it might survive for quite a few generations, but eventually disappear. All this sort of thing can be modelled and demonstrated with genetic algorithms quite easily. Or a statistics wiz might be able to actually calculate it out. The point remains....deleterious mutations eventually tend to be filtered out, often surprisingly quickly.
I know all about dominant and recessive, the mechanics of which actually benefits evolution in many ways (google for 'sickle cell malaria immunity'). But it was also irrelevant to the particular discussion, since this is not a biology textbook, so I didn't go there. Only someone who is actively trying to miss the point would have a problem with my description.
Likewise, when we see glitches in Wikipedia (whether due to vandalism, someone pushing an agenda, or just bad writing), we are seeing the 'random' part of the process in action. Again, we generally see that selection kicks in rapidly, and the glitches disappear.
You are making another praxeological error here. A person making an edit to Wikipedia is neither random nor accidental, irregardless of his intention or the content of the edit.
<petty>'praxeological'...hmm, well if you are trying to impress with your vocabulary, you might want to lose the word 'irregardless'. </petty>
Anyway, I didn't claim otherwise, nor did I claim that Wikipedia was an exact analogy to evolution in every way. My use of the word 'random' above was in quotes for a reason. An anonymous Wikipedia modification that would generally be considered "bad" is "more random" than the process of hiring an expert writer, who then carefully writes an article from start to finish.
Regardless, analogy is not identity. I claimed that Wikipedia and evolution had some things in common, and that there are similarities in the things that trip people up. In this case, the similarity is that 'average quality of the additions' is much lower than the 'quality of the whole'. The edits in Wikipedia are not truly random of course (but then again, short of quantum physics, there are few things that are "truly random" -- and yet, we find the word meaningful in many non-quantum-physics contexts). My only point is that looking at the average quality of edits will be misleading as to the quality of the whole, because it ignores another process, selection.
You are arbitrarily assigning a positive value to a 'correct' edit by calling it selective, and arbitrarily assigning negative value to an 'incorrect' edit by calling it a glitch, where as every edit is selective. An edit is done on purpose, with intention, and as the result of various intellectual processes. The ethics or the factualness of the edit is another matter entirely. And again, Wikipedia is intended to have 'correct' edits contributed, as well as 'incorrect' edits also contributed (which by design will be corrected by subsequent 'correct' edits).
Yes, that is why I claimed that understanding the dynamic of Wikipedia is a stepping stone to understanding evolution, not that it is an exact duplicate of evolution. Obviously, anything man made can't be an analogy to you because there is intention behind it. But that is because you are actively trying to miss the point of the analogy. And because you think in black and white.
This is how Wikipedia is intended to work. Genes are not intended to mutate
Genes are not intended to mutate? Intended by whom?
The term doesn't make sense except in the presense of intelligence. Once again, it seems you are attempting to understand evolution by applying concepts (such as 'intent') that only make sense in a 'created by intelligent being' world. Big mistake, and not surprising you are confused.
Genes do mutate. That's really all that can be said.
However, as I have said, if there ever came into being a 'perfect' means of reproduction with 0% chance of mutation, it would have become extinct rather quickly, as it would fatally limit the ability of the descendants to adapt to future changes of environment. So if you want to define 'intent' to mean what is 'favored' by evolution, than I will argue that there is an intention for there to be occasional mutations.
But I personally would not choose the word 'intent'. Let's just say, evolution strongly disfavors, in the long term, perfect reproduction with no mutation.
, and later have that mutation fixed by yet another mutation.
I'm not sure what you mean here (although at this point, I'm a bit surprised I'm even trying). If the mutation needs 'fixing', it probably won't continue to exist. Each mutation that actually survives into future generations will typically either be positive (increasing survival chances) or neutral. There is no requirement -- or likelihood -- in evolution that a deleterious mutation survive and be 'fixed' in latter generations. Where are you getting that from?
2. Prediction Markets:
This example, too, falls victim to the same general misconception as the previous. So rather than rehash those mistakes, let's look at some other things.
Prediction markets turn out to be remarkably accurate, typically more accurate than any individual expert can predict...
While this may be true of prediction markets, when used as an analogy in the context of evolution and its' alternatives, it is found internally contradictory. Supposing an omniscient and omnipotent designer vs. naturalistic evolution, the above is equivalent to saying that the creativity which conceived of classical and quantum physics, atoms, photons, and everything else from a blank slate could not achieve preferable results to what various chemical processes did by accident. To simplify, this would assert that infinite power, infinite creativity, and infinite knowledge are collectively incapable of making something better suited for its' environment than various finite chemical processes.
Huh? Seriously.....huh?
You are somehow assuming that I am asserting that evolution would work better than an infinitely powerful God? That the "individual expert" in my paragraph above is supposed to be an analogue of God, and I am saying "see, evolution works better than (Ben Johnson's idea of) God would"? (as opposed to saying something more like, "see, prediction markets [and by analogy Darwinian processes] are surprisingly powerful things"?)
Wow. I'm quite sure I never made any claim that God wouldn't totally kick evolution's ass at making amazingly cool things. Of course he would. He'd be infinite! He'd be omnicient! He'd be omnipotent! He'd be magic!
But that is dependant on this God of yours actually existing. And see, I don't think God exists. NOT because, if he DID exist (in all his magicness), he couldn't make all the neato things on planet Earth as well as evolution does. I think he doesn't exist simply because it strikes me as an absurd fairy tale, and there are more likely and reasonable explanations for the things we see.
Your twisted interpretation of my essay really gives some insight into the mind of the evolution denier. And frankly, a good laugh. Thanks for that.
Imagine that lots of random people come in and make bad guesses... those experts who consistently predict badly will tend to eventually pick another line of work
Here again, you make a praxeological error of 'random people'. The people you specify are not acting randomly, but purposefully, and with specific goals in mind.
My use of the word 'random' was in a section that started with the word 'imagine'....in other words, I was saying 'what if this happened?' and then proceeded to explain how it would be corrected. Obviously, having 'random people' is not a requirement, it is a worst case scenario, only there to demonstrate how the correction system works.
Again, if you want to miss the point, I suppose you are going about it the right way.
You are confusing anonymity and autonomy with randomness, in your attempt to equate this with evolution. This example also, by definition, does not fit the model of random mutations. This example is equivalent to saying that mutations which do not find themselves beneficial will eventually choose to stop occurring.
Evolution, of course, has similar equilibrium-seeking behavior.
Here you have either generalized the meaning of the word equilibrium to the point of uselessness, or have just plain stopped making sense. Are you asserting that evolution seeks not substantive change, but the lack of change, i.e. equilibrium? This is akin to arguing that an increase in entropy (from amongst its various flavors) causes 'faster' evolution.
I'm going to have to guess you haven't taken economics? I deal with problems every day that the concept of equilibria is the only reasonable way to discuss them. Maybe I stopped making sense because -- (drum roll please....) -- you are one of those people I was talking about who is unable to grasp equilibrium-seeking concepts?
But as long as there is a statistical difference, a suboptimal earlobe is an unstable situation, waiting to be corrected.
Statistically speaking, a single statistical outlier would be (if the system were seeking any type of equilibrium one might find so defined in a dictionary of some sort) brought back towards the mean, not the mean brought towards the outlier, if as you contend evolution 'has...equilibrium-seeking behavior'. In fact, what you seem to be referring here to as an equilibrium state in the prediction market, is simply a state most closely resembling actuality. You are defining the equilibrium state with a specific conceptual goal in mind and a preference for an attenuation of input that distracts from that goal. Evolution has no 'goal', conceptual or otherwise, and it cannot proceed without exaggeration of the status quo.
Your misunderstanding of evolution (and equilibria) is so profound here that I don't know where to start.
Whether evolution has a goal or not depends on your meaning of 'goal'. Probably 'affinity' is a better word. Does a brick, when released in the air, have a 'goal' of being on the ground? No, probably not by most people's definitions, but it might be said to have an affinity toward being lower than it is. But it obviously can't anticipate how far it can go (just as evolution can't anticipate future forms). A falling brick -- and evolution -- behaves similarly to a less-than-bright dog that has its leash wrapped around a post...it can only attempt to move in the direction it wants to go, rather than going in the opposite direction temporarily so that it can then be free to continue closer to its 'goal'.
Anyway, a brick floating in the air is not stable, and will tend to proceed to a stable state, where the force of gravity is equalled by the force of the ground. Usually the word 'equilibrium' is used for more complex situations, such as when there are a great number of different forces, and they all have a tendency to come into balance.
The apparent fact that you can't wrap your head around the concept of equilibria doesn't mean it isn't an exceptionally meaningful and useful abstraction for those of us that can.
BTW, if you think I am anthropomophizing bricks and evolution to say that they can have goals or affinities....well, frankly I don't see goals of people as being anything other than affinities, albeit much more complex ones than those of bricks.
3. Recommendation systems:
Again, you fall victim to the same fallacies as before, so again let's look at some other things.
As do you, so I won't address each and every complaint.
The point, of course, is that this system is very evolution-like, in that lots of messy data, with very little apparent 'intelligence,' processed by a simple iterative algorithm, can find sophisticated equilibria with a great deal of precision. Looking directly at the raw data, such as at an individual user's set of ratings, would indicate a lot more slop than is apparent in the final model. The system doesn't 'know' that a movie is a science fiction movie, any more than natural selection 'knows' why a particular mutation in the DNA increases the chance of an animal surviving to adulthood. Nonetheless, it works, against all intuition.
No wonder you're a bit confused. Let's break this paragraph down.
The point, of course, is that this system is very evolution-like, in that lots of messy data, with very little apparent 'intelligence,' processed by a simple iterative algorithm, can find sophisticated equilibria with a great deal of precision.
This can be further broken down into
'The evolution system processes low-intelligence/messy data in a simple way resulting in a precise 'sophisticated equilibria'.
Now the problems begin to become more apparent. Evolution is a passive, reactive, effect Ð a result. The only active aspect of evolution is that of natural selection (although in which sense you are aware of it you are not referring to). Your algorithm, while accepting data passively, is implemented actively not in the sense that it exists at all, but that you use your own discretion to determine the appropriate number of iterations the algorithm is run before the output becomes acceptable. The independent discretion of the algorithm implementer is by your own description a necessary component of the system. Also at issue is your characterization of the data as 'messy' and of 'very little apparent intelligence'. Now you are missing a key distinction between accuracy and precision in data. The data you are referring to is extremely precise, but is not extremely accurate (that is not saying that it is distinctly inaccurate). It is precise because the rating is given at a precise amount i.e. 3 of 5 stars, as opposed to an imprecise rating i.e. 'some where from 3 to 5 of 5 stars'. Also, a movie title is generally an extremely precise way to identify the movie, as opposed to 'you know that one, about the guy, and that lady, and all that stuff that happened...' But the data is not perfectly accurate, since the ratings are subject to change over time i.e. the person thought it was the best movie they had seen at the time, giving it 5 of 5, but since then they have seen much better, and would now only give it 4 of 5, so that the data itself cannot account for people's constantly fluctuating preferences. This having been said, I see insufficient similarity in the comparison of data points with the mechanisms of micro-evolutional change (specifically, genetic mutation, and various and sundry mating situations and habits) since your system purposefully results in organization, and the evolutionary system randomly results in improvement in environmental suitability.
The system doesn't 'know' that a movie is a science fiction movie, any more than natural selection 'knows' why a particular mutation in the DNA increases the chance of an animal surviving to adulthood.
This is true. It is also true that natural selection is not applied to a certain degree in one case, then to a greater or lesser degree in another case, depending on the purposeful intent towards a specific goal by an omnipotent 3rd person, such as does your algorithim.
...there are probably few atheists who reject evolution. Of course, this only shows correlation, not causation,
Correct. And as long as no sufficiently specific data is ever gathered, all it will ever remain is a hypothetical correlation.
[Evolution] would be hard not to accept, given the lack of alternative explanations for life.
The lack of alternative explanations is so obviously factually untrue, that in my view it seriously undermines your credibility. It at least confirms that you have done little to no research on alternatives, which indicate either your lack of time, lack of ability, or disinterest in considering alternatives. It also serves to highlight the essentialness evolution plays as a philosophy in your worldview. Implicit in your statement is that if one does not 'accept religion' (with whatever contextual emotional loading that brings with it) that evolution must be accepted. Rather than being the best explanation, it seems simply to be the only one you are capable of conceiving of. You therefore essentially assert that evolution should be accepted not wholly on its merits, but simply in conjunction with a rejection of religion, which is not ultimately dissimilar to what you're accusing the evolution-infidels of.
Removing the conceptual difficulty of evolution-like concepts, though, might be a much lower hanging fruit that has been largely ignored.
Similarly, a few doses of probability, logic, and mechanical engineering may do a few of those trained only in the biological arts some good as well.
Only then, when comfortable with these more elementary concepts, are people likely to be receptive to evolution itself... It's just good teaching -- starting with the less challenging, and moving to the more challenging, while keeping each step self-contained.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this recommendation aptly describes the current 12-year public education system. I'm not saying that evolution is wrong because people don't believe it, (although you almost seem to equate believing it with its status as true) but that your proposed 'fix' is already in place. Public school has seen nothing but evolution-oriented texts for some decades now, and science and math are both taught in the orderly progressive step-by-step manner you support. I can't help but be left wondering what exactly you would change?
I thought I attempted to describe what might help. What you speak of is teaching evolution solely as a part of biology. I think that teaching things that have similarities to evolution, but non-biological, would be fruitful. For instance, I think an early introduction to market economics would be useful. I'm not only talking about schools though, I am interested in creating some things on the web that can help with such things.
In your case, though, it just seems like you could use a whole bunch practice in gray scale thinking....almost all of your logic above is strictly black and white.
Likewise, for someone who has been raised with the notion that all plants and animals were created by an intelligent being, the idea of evolution is just as large a conceptual leap. Even just considering the possibility is likely beyond their capability.
You can cut the irony with a knife. It reminds me of a saying I read somewhere: 'before you remove the splinter from your brother's eye, first remove the plank from your own'. Like unto it is another quote, again from C.S. Lewis: 'A great many of those who 'debunk' traditional...values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process.' May I recommend some research in informal and formal logic for yourself? No doubt with a little time investment you will find resources: starting with the less challenging, and eventually move on to the more challenging, all the while keeping each step nicely self-contained.
Sure thanks for the advice, Ben. Can you recommend a good teacher of logic? Wait...no, nevermind.
-rob